Why Drax and Groot Make No Sense | Fixing the Destroy Archetype | The Snap Chat Ep. 193

This week, Alex is joined by Marvel Snap streamer and physical TCG enthusiast: GreGor! The duo kicks things off by chatting about the booming physical card game scene, including Riftbound, Magic: The Gathering, and the upcoming Cyberpunk TCG. Plus, they share some massive updates regarding The Snap Chat's live show at PAX West!

Then, it's time for a huge OTA Balance Patch Review. Alex and GreGor break down the targeted nerf to Wilson Fisk (and why it barely moves the needle for his archetype). They also roast the baffling buffs to Drax and Groot, celebrate the impressive new stats on Hawkeye, and discuss why the Firehair buff might be exactly what the Destroy archetype needs right now.

Next, they celebrate the off-meta genius of Zapgaze, who shockingly took home the Golden Gauntlet World Championship with a relatively inexpensive Cerebro deck featuring M'Baku!

Finally, they review the newest releases:

• Red Wolf: Why this 2/1 scaler is drastically underperforming in the meta and failing to find a home outside of Thanos decks.
• Doctor Octopus: GreGor defends this Quick Draw resetting tech card, explaining why it's actually a sleeper hit for Silver Surfer and Thanos shells.
• Death (Fractured Frontier): Is this 5-Cost resurrect card completely dead on arrival? Alex and GreGor brainstorm wild combos using Weapon X, Killmonger, and Tombstone, but ultimately worry that it falls prey to Stardust and Cosmo far too easily.

Join Alex Coccia and special guest GreGor as they chat about this and more on this episode of The Snap Chat—and catch Cozy and Alex every week as they discuss all things Marvel Snap.

You’ve been listening to The Snap Chat. Keep the conversation going on x.com/ACozyGamer and x.com/AlexanderCoccia. Until next time, happy snapping!

Transcript

Welcome Back GreGor

Alex 0:00

Hey everyone, and welcome to the next edition of The Snap Chat. Today I'm joined once again by Gregor, one of my favorite streamers in the Marvel Snap space, and just general TCG connoisseur. It's great to have you on the podcast. And, uh, you've been playing a whole ton of games. How have you been?

GreGor 0:16

I've been great. Yeah, just a lot of really good card games in the space right now. Uh, aside from Marvel Snap, uh, I've been playing a lot of Magic: The Gathering, and I've been more recently getting into Riftbound, which you're familiar with.

Alex 0:30

Yes, I am. And, uh, so, like, what got you into... I... Well, Magic you've been playing for a long time, and, uh, you even stream, like, Arena, right?

GreGor 0:37

Yeah. Every once in a while we'll do some Arena.

Why Riftbound Rules

Alex 0:40

And so what got you into Riftbound specifically?

GreGor 0:43

Just the, there's a definitely a community for tournament play and competitive play. I've been seeing a lot of turnout within the spaces. Also, it's just, like, a cool combination of different TCGs. The... It's like they combined bits of Magic: The Gathering. There's Lorcana with the way that you win the game is through points. Uh, and then the capturing of spaces is similar to Marvel Snap. Like, so you're trying to win locations. So it's a whole bunch of different other stuff. Also, it's not really expensive to get into yet. So I think that's also a great way to get into a card game is if the entry point is low cost. Like, you could build a deck for relatively cheap compared to, like, a standard deck in Magic: The Gathering.

Alex 1:27

Yeah, you can. Yeah, it's- Uh, the only challenge we have in Riftbound, I think... This is not a Riftbound podcast. That, that's a different one. That's my Into the Rift podcast. This is The Snap Chat podcast. Yeah, Into the Rift. But what I'll mention about Riftbound, what's interesting is that, um, it... The first set, those cards, the mainstays of that set, are the ones that are getting expensive, right? So- Yeah and that always happens in TCGs and whatnot. And talking about Lorcana actually, not to bounce all over the place, they just announced a digital client is in the works officially from, uh, from the, the team there, which I think is super exciting. So we have another digital TCG/CCG making its way into the scene.

GreGor 2:03

Awesome. I think it gets more people into the community. Like, whatever your thing is, whether it's, like- Lorcana I think has a pretty, it's, it's a l- lower learning curve than a lot of other TCGs, so that could be a great entry point for people trying to get into the card space.

Alex 2:20

Yeah, and like y- you and I, we're two peas in a pod 'cause we just love playing card games, and if there's a new card game we wanna play, and we just play, we play all the games, and to the dismay of our wallets, it's, uh, it's a, it's a hobby that just simply, uh, it h- it, it just, it's just, it just takes everything from you, but at the same time it gives you so much.

GreGor 2:39

What's great is a lot of them just have j- draft formats too. So, like, if you wanna get started, just doing a draft is a great way to get into it, even if you have no clue what you're doing. It's always a fun time.

Alex 2:48

And are you interested in Cyberpunk TCG as well?

GreGor 2:51

I am. Dude, any TCG I can get my hands on- Yeah if there's a community there for it. The thing is, I live in a, uh, somewhat smallish town, so the spaces where they have the TCG available and the community to get the stuff, like right now there's one place in my town that stocks, uh, Riftbound stuff, and I'm trying to get one of my other shops to stu- stock it as well, and he's like, "Okay, if people come out, if people bring decks and I see them playing, I will buy the stuff." So that's been what I've been driving towards.

Alex 3:20

Yeah,

PAX West Plug

Alex 3:21

that's awesome. And, uh, on that note, I know you're from the West Coast. A reminder to everybody, 'cause Gregor and I, we actually met at PAX West a couple years back, and at PAX West, uh, we do have the, uh, the little Snapchat live trivia show happening on Friday, September 4th at 3:00 PM. I think I was told that the location is the Froggy Theatre. I think that's where it's tentatively scheduled, but I think that by the time this goes live on the Monday, they might actually post the official schedule there. So when I saw Froggy Theatre, I was like, "Is that a real theater? Is there one called the Froggy Theatre?" If it is, that's beautiful. I love that. But, uh, yeah, just a reminder that on Friday, September 4th at 3:00 PM your boy will be doing the Snapchat live there, uh, which is gonna be pretty fun and exciting, and are you going to PAX West? I'm just curious. Uh, not

GreGor 4:07

this year. Ah.

Alex 4:08

Not this

GreGor 4:08

year.

Alex 4:09

Okay. I was gonna be like- But maybe next year "'Cause maybe you'll see Gregor."

GreGor 4:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah. PAX is always a great time. I hope you have a fantastic time. Uh, get a lot of card games in. They have that space at the very bottom of... I'm guessing it's the same one they did last year. Froggy Theatre is probably at the top of their, w- I forget what that building's called.

Alex 4:26

There's the Arch and the Summit. It's probably on the top of Summit.

GreGor 4:29

The... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Alex 4:32

Yeah, 'cause PAX West, for those pe- people who've never been there, it's actually two separate large convention centers. It sounds like it'd be a hassle, but they're actually really close logistically. Like, you walk there in, like, five minutes, and even then you walk through a scene that's basically just an extension of outdoor PAX, and it has, like, food trucks and stuff like that. And if... You can't get lost. You just follow the crowd, 'cause everyone's walking between the two nonstop. And the theaters are amazing. The Arch Theater has all the, like, gaming-centric stuff, and Summit is basically just dedicated to tabletop and stuff like that. Uh, they also have the main theater there as well for, like, concerts and stuff. So it's really awesome.

GreGor 5:07

Yeah, and they had everything broken down by floor, which I thought was really cool. Like, the very bottom floor, all TCG stuff. Then you go up one, uh, you ha- One of them is, like, artist alley and free play area. The very top is where they have the theaters and, like, the community stuff. It's great. Yeah. I love the way they organize it.

Alex 5:22

It is awesome. It is absolutely awesome. So if you're going to PAX, keep an eye out for us on Friday.

OTA Review Begins

Alex 5:28

Now let's get into the meat and potatoes of this podcast here, and we're gonna start with the OTA review. We got a bunch of stuff to talk about. We're gonna talk about the OTA, we're gonna talk about the Golden Gauntlet winner, we're gonna talk about Red Wolf, Doc Ock, and of course, the new Death

Wilson Fisk Nerf

Alex 5:41

coming as well. But let's start with the most significant change from the OTA, Wilson Fisk going from a 5/9 to a 5/8. Gregor, I'll give you the floor. What are your thoughts on this change?

GreGor 5:51

I d- I don't think it changes much for me. So arguably, if you're playing a deck that is trying to take priority, you're still gonna get him as a 3/8. That's basically a gladiator without the downside of potentially pulling something big for your opponent. If it's playing Techno-Organic Virus like it has been, you're going to play it on there and you're gonna get him to... It's, Techno-Organic is, is it plus two or plus one?

Alex 6:17

It's, uh, it's plus one every time. Uh- Okay but it's a two cost now.

GreGor 6:22

Yeah. So you're still getting that over 10 realistically in a kit that's running Techno-Organic Virus. Wilson Fisk is gonna probably go above a 10. Still gonna get cost reduction for, like, a Skaar kit. Yeah. I don't think the minus one power is a huge deal breaker here.

Alex 6:37

Yeah, I would agree. And the decks are s- doing, uh, really, really well. Statistically they did drop slightly though. I mean, you can't argue that going from 5/9 to 5/8, especially on often what is turn three, doesn't- Yeah have a high impact. And also I think that, like, there's more happening here. You had Techno-Organic Virus get nerfed, right? 'Cause it used to be... Like, it kind of was a bit of a horizontal change, but a nerf overall, um, because Mobius M Mobius was being naturally put in those decks. It stayed at one cost, now it's a two cost. Yeah. It stays there as well. You also had the Martyr change as well, going from a 1/6 to a 1/5. So this deck actually has very steadily decreased in power since the heyday of its inception. So I think that this is probably fine. I think that Wilson Fisk was, like, non-problematic, but such a de facto great card with, like, a high 50s percent win rate, like 56, 57, 58% win rate, that this does make sense realistically, especially when your deck is built around that early initiative, that early strength, and you just dropping three nines on your opponent. It feels really bad.

GreGor 7:36

Yeah. Okay. I mean, the only other card that compares to him in terms of, like, stats as... So we're gonna talk to him as if he's a three cost, 'cause that's usually what you're getting him for. Yeah. Would be Starbrand. Yeah. And Starbrand you're playing the TOV to mitigate the, you know, the downside.

Alex 7:53

You could argue that the new Jean Foster almost hits that level too. Yeah though a little random, right? In terms of just pure stats. But yeah, Starbrand naturally has that 310 stat line, but you have to deal with that ongoing of course. And then, uh, Jane Foster, she does have, um, from a stats perse- perspective, she's naturally a 3/8, potentially up to a 3/12. You throw Venus on the field of play, she's even better there. So Jane Foster does compete as well, who by the way, has been sticking the landing a little bit. I think Jane Foster we're still seeing, uh, stick into some of the decks here that perhaps, uh, she might have jumped off of. But yeah, Wilson Fisk probably the biggest change. Simple sentence here.

Small Tweaks Mad Thinker Hydro

Alex 8:30

Do you care about Mad Thinker going from 1/2 to 1/3?

GreGor 8:32

No.

Alex 8:33

All right. Simple question here. Do you care about Hydro-Man going from a 5/9 to a 5/10?

GreGor 8:40

Actually, maybe. Maybe.

Alex 8:42

I, I- Okay, that, okay, this is more than I expected

GreGor 8:44

I think from 5/9 to 5/10, at least I'm trying him out to see if he fits in a specific type of deck.

Alex 8:51

Yeah, I guess. Like- The stats are starting to get good enough, right?

GreGor 8:54

Yeah. And then

Alex 8:56

it's another little toy for Mobius too

GreGor 8:58

maybe even Mo- Yeah, I was gonna say Mobius on three, Hydro Man on five

Alex 9:01

Yeah, he sees almost no play, but like there's gotta be something there.

GreGor 9:05

Right? I, I mean, I would be more inclined to build around him than before.

Alex 9:09

Yeah. Fair enough. Okay. That's a more positive view of Hydro-Man than I

Guardians Buff Debate

Alex 9:13

expected. And then we have just in time for the, uh, the Sanctum weekend event, we have Drax, we have Groot getting buffed. So Drax and Groot both getting buffed. Now this actually, I got a bit of a beef with this. This makes no sense to me. So Drax goes from a four-five to a four-six, same plus four power. Why would you ever play Drax when you could play Groot? Groot is literally one cost cheaper for just one base power less, 'cause Groot still does the same plus four power. So like I don't see a world where I ever wanna play Drax compared to Groot. Groot is one base power lower, but it's literally a three drop that still gets the same upside.

GreGor 9:49

Yeah. Well, what are you putting in the... If you're not playing Drax, what are you putting in that four drop slot?

Alex 9:55

Well, I'm n- I'm not playing Drax or Groot ever anyways. Okay. So that's a good question, I guess. Yeah. That's a great question. What do you play instead? I'm just saying though that like outside of Sanctum, I suppose, like there... The, the numbers just don't add up here. Like-

GreGor 10:08

Yeah

Alex 10:08

Drax is simply inferior to Groot. Like it's just that simple, right? Like it just- Yeah it just does not make sense in any way to play Drax, unless specifically you're playing a Guardian's deck where you're curving out into three, five, four, uh, sorry, three, four, five into Gamora, whatever. Which you're not doing. No, you're not playing that. You can cope with it in Sanctum, of course, but realistically in ranked play you're not. So that's kinda my concern. I feel like they, they touched Groot and Drax and it still doesn't really make sense. So.

GreGor 10:37

Unless there's a card in the future that actually gives you benefit for that kind of play style. And to my knowledge

Alex 10:43

there- Like a bad play style? Like you- Yeah you, if, if you lose, you actually win.

GreGor 10:48

If like an on reveal gave you a buff or something. I don't know. There, there's sometimes cards that make other cards relevant again, Venus being an example of that,

Alex 10:57

true. You could have made the argument too, I guess, that like Drax is better for Shadowlands Daredevil, but-

GreGor 11:04

Yeah

Alex 11:04

I don't know if that's a thing that's worth actually chasing.

GreGor 11:07

Yeah.

Alex 11:08

Spoiler,

GreGor 11:08

it's not. 'Cause there's a bunch of other ways to get that to, to proc.

Alex 11:11

Exactly. So. Drax is not going in those decks, that's the thing.

GreGor 11:13

Yeah, yeah.

Hawkeye Goes S Tier

Alex 11:15

Now, this next change though, I think is deceptively... We're trying to zoom through this here. Uh, we're zooming through the OTA. But I do think this change is actually legit. Hawkeye is not a joke. This goes from- This is S-tier. Yeah, no kidding. It goes from a one-one that gets plus three to a plus four, and it used to do one-one plus two. Got already buffed to plus three, was seeing some fringe play in bounce. Now it's a legit one-five if you play on curve and can bounce it. This is a good card, man. Like it's a little, it's a little choreographed, but there is no doubt that Hawkeye puts up stats now.

GreGor 11:48

Yeah. I-- we're starting to see pieces for potentially another, uh, maybe a bounce meta come back. I'd, I'd love to see bounce move come back in a big way.

Alex 11:57

I would too. I, I've-- actually I take that back. Bounce move and like move bounce, that was a dark era of Snap. And not because like- Was it? not for the average person, but I think that it, the, the top end of the meta was really one trick maybe. I'm just thinking, 'cause you're talking about like the, the Frigga, Human Torch bounce stuff, right?

GreGor 12:16

Uh, yeah, partially that. Like deck-

Alex 12:19

So how does that deck look like now with Hawkeye? Like what, like what do you envision right now that's getting you excited?

GreGor 12:25

Uh, stuff with Joaquin. Joaquin Torres, you could potentially do something huge. It-- you could go one of two ways with it. I'm thinking just purely bounce 'cause I'm not much of a move bounce player, but I respect people who can play that. I'm thinking you either go like a Hit-Monkey style deck with, uh, Black Swan, or you're just doing a ton of bounce stuff with like Joaquin Torres, Beast, Hawkinson, and see how big you can make it. Sage, that kind of package.

Alex 12:56

Yeah. And even then, like I kinda like the idea of like doing that package. You have Hawkeye for the straight up power. Uh, Nico Minoru always puts up more power than people expect 'cause of the doubling and stuff like that. Yeah. You have the now scouting capability and the disruption of Iceman. I think Joaquin Torres, Falcon is cool. The problem is that like you, you... It doesn't work on curve, right? You can't Hawkeye one, Joaquin on two because Joaquin will, will not proc a double reveal on the Hawkeye played in that order. It will proc the single one, but it won't reveal in time for the Hawkeye to get the double.

GreGor 13:26

Right.

Alex 13:26

But like I, I do like those decks. I always have liked those decks. Despite the fact that honestly I'm not a bounce gamer, and I think that, that takes a special type of like earn- like a earned practice that you have to be good at those types of decks. I think move is the same way ultimately. And neither one of those archetypes- It's all split wing yeah.

GreGor 13:42

Yeah.

Alex 13:42

So yeah. Nei- neither one of those archetypes call to me specifically. So ultimately I, I often just, uh, I play them when new cards come out that demand I play them, I think is when I'm often playing bounce and move.

GreGor 13:54

Yeah. I can't play traditional move, but I like kind of new move. Like, if it's just move as many Human Torches as possible that's n- not my game play style. But if it's like, uh, set up some of these new cards that allow for additional moves, Patrok being one of the new cards in those kind of packages. The new Spider-Man, which I didn't think I would like, but actually really, really enjoyed. Brand New Day Spider-Man, super fun.

Alex 14:23

Yeah.

GreGor 14:23

It's cool to see that they're getting a lot more tools within the move package.

Alex 14:28

I do think that, like, Patrok is low-key one of the best cards in the game. Uh, Spider-Man Brand New Day has continued to be very, very good, very solid Season Pass card. And I like this as a Season Pass card too, 'cause it's been able to go in a ton of different decks, ton of different archetypes, and et cetera. So yeah, I like that color

Fire Hair Buff Hype

Alex 14:42

a lot. Last thing on the OTA, though, and this is kinda... It leads us slightly into what we'll talk about later with, uh, with Death. We do have Fire Hair. Fire Hair does get a pretty significant buff going to a two-four. Fire Hair reads, "When one of your cards is destroyed," and this uses that card to on reveal. The most we saw Fire Hair I think was when Misery was in its absolute heyday. And now these cards have not been seen in some time, so I'll, I'll bring up Misery as well just to make sure everyone knows what, what's up. Misery used to be a four-nine. It's now a four-eight. On reveal, repeat the on reveal abilities of your other cards here, then destroy them. So naturally you'd get, like, the on reveal of the card, you'd Misery it, it would on reveal again, and then Fire Hair would proc that on reveal for a third time. It was like a super Wong where things were getting destroyed. I actually think that someone out there is gonna cook, and Fire Hair is gonna be legit. Now, is it gonna be with Death? We'll have to save that conversation for then. But I think this is a very legit poke in the direction of, "Hey, guys, did you guys forget this card existed? This might be really broken. Someone break it." You know what I mean? 'Cause I think Fire Hair, on paper, is one of the more exciting cards in Marvel Snap that hasn't been figured out yet.

GreGor 15:47

I have trauma with Fire Hair. One of my community viewers consistently has a play where they're able to land Galactus with Fire Hair, and unless you have Cosmo, you can't stop it. It's... You could do some really, really cheeky stuff with Fire Hair. She's really, really powerful. And I'm excited to see, yeah, what new, new decks come about. I think Death is gonna be good, just the fact that it brings back all destroyed cards. I'm sure we'll get into that. I'm jumping ahead.

Alex 16:15

Yeah. It's definitely a card that, like- I'm ho-hum on, but at the same time with the Fire Hair buff, I'm like, "Okay, hold on now." I know it's only one point, but we've all lost games in Marvel Snap by one point. So we can't underestimate the impact of that, especially as a 2/4, which baseline is just, it's a premium stat line for a two drop, despite what has happened in the world of power creep.

Golden Gauntlet Cerebro Win

Alex 16:38

But let's talk about the Golden Gauntlet next before we move on to the previews and reviews of the cards. That is the OTA coverage. We do have a new champion. We have Zapgaze. Congratulations on winning the Golden Gauntlet World Championship Series qualifier, I believe number three. Great work. The deck list is surprising. Who had Cerebro on their, their, uh, their docket for a ch- a championship potentially winning deck? One that features some cards that are honestly absolute bangers. I'm gonna read the deck out. It's Bast, M'Baku, Nightcrawler, Luke Cage, Scarlet Witch, Sentinel, Cerebro. You have Mystique, Chameleon, Cosmo, Makkari, and Bastion. This is an absolutely beautiful deck that's honestly not that expensive. I think, like, Series 5... Is Bastion still Series 5? It is. Series 5 and c- uh, is gonna be Bastion and Chameleon. Everything else is relatively inexpensive. We have a championship-winning M'Baku deck. Gregor, how happy are you to see this?

GreGor 17:50

Very surprised. M'Baku, the fact that M'Baku's in there is blowing my mind a little bit. Also, the fact that they were able to play around the locations that can disrupt this deck, like Monster Island or any location that buffs with just a single Scarlet Witch is super impressive. That takes a lot of skill to play around, especially with all, um, all the Thanos Fractured Frontiers out there. Uh Yeah, I was not expecting a Cerebro deck to win the championship here.

Alex 18:21

No, not at all. And for me, what really surprises me too is, you're right, all the location factors are huge. Like, every time I play Cerebro, which I kind of like as an archetype, it is always so doomed by RNG and location RNG, which is so frustrating. Scarlet Witch does help from, to some degree. I tend to play, and I've not won a championship with it, but I tend to like Valkyrie in Cerebro three decks. Yeah. Um, I like resetting, like, the Cerebro and the Mystique and stuff like that. Now Chameleon almost kind of does that, 'cause, like, you get the, the buff with the proc and et cetera. Like, there's, there's in- very interesting things you can do with Chameleon. I've always loved Valkyrie though. But I cannot deny how just impressed I am that someone was able to win a major championship with a Cerebro deck. One that's relatively expensive. And we've seen this a bunch of times. W, when they won with their Negasonic Supergiant deck, that was, like, a relatively inexpensive deck, all things considered. Yep. This deck is relatively inexpensive. It's not Fractured Frontier, Thanos, pay to win stuff that people would've been frustrated about had that type of archetype won. So yeah, like, we're talking about a very good points deck that honestly, I bet you people weren't teched for Cerebro because they were expecting everything else.

GreGor 19:32

Yeah. It goes to show you that you can still build good decks even if you aren't ICL. There's still combos you could find in relatively inexpensive cards.

Alex 19:42

Yeah. So congratulations to Zapgaze, and if you wanna play some Cerebro, now is the time.

Red Wolf Reality Check

Alex 19:50

That is gonna take us, my friend, to our review of... We got a couple cards we... We got Red Wolf, we got Doc Ock, 'cause Red Wolf and Doc Ock you know, they're, I don't wanna say they go hand in hand, but f- to some degree, right?

GreGor 20:01

Yeah.

Alex 20:01

They are meant to be played together. So let's talk about Red Wolf first. Red Wolf is the 2/1 that released in Marvel Snap. It reads, "On reveal, plus one power for each card in your hand, and if you quick draw Red Wolf, you also give your hand plus one power." Statistically, there is not a lot happening here. It's, uh, it's not great for our friend Red Wolf. He's looking at a flat 50% win rate according to Untap-based statistics taken just before recording. That's ranked 90 to top infinite at a 7% popularity. Average cube rate is 0.02, so just barely at a Razor's Edge positive. The numbers don't look good. They simply don't look good, and, um, when I was playing it, I felt like the archetypes I was trying Red Wolf in, I was trying some, like, Victoria Hand type stuff, Shield, I was trying some Devil Dinosaur stuff. Those things I think need help as it is, and I feel like that wasn't helping my testing with Red Wolf. But just generally speaking he seems like he needs more base power. What are your thoughts and how has your experience gone with Red Wolf?

GreGor 20:58

Exact same. I was not having much luck with him at all. When he did pop off, he... Maybe I would get him to a 2.5, 2.6. I would rarely get the quick draw effect on him, and like you said, the archetypes that y- you're trying to play him in already need love, so it's not r- really getting all that much. Like, I tried him in, like, Marvel Boy lists with a bunch of, like, the new Sub-Mariner and I can't remember her name, but the one that gives the- Clea the minus ability. Yeah, Clea. Thank you. And I tried her, tried him in Devil Dino. Still not that great. Yeah, I think he needs a buff to his stat line. Cause a 2/1, uh, like how... What was the average you were getting with him when you were playing him? Like, how big was he getting?

Alex 21:47

To 5. Yeah. 6, sometimes even 4 when I got him late. Like, not great. Not great, especially when you're playing, like, quick draw type stuff. You're often playing through your hand. The only exception was when I was playing, like a, like the double Thanos type stuff, which I didn't... It's kind of frus- frustrating in a sense, 'cause, like, I think that deck is good, but while testing Red Wolf, I was actually traveling while Red Wolf was, uh, was released, and, um, I almost never drew Red Wolf, right? And so as a result, like I think... And but when I did, and I had him on curve and I was able to play Red Wolf, buffing up even stones in hand, right? That plus one kind of adds up there. Yeah. So there was, like, these moments where I was like, "Okay, hold on. This isn't crazy." But quick draw has like, I think, as much as I like the quick draw mechanics, I feel like at the same time, sometimes there's a lower floor than I would like on them, and I think that Red Wolf suffers from a very low floor.

GreGor 22:41

Yeah.

Alex 22:41

So like, what do you do? What do you do with Red Wolf? Like, do you think you do anything? Do you think that, like, we're just not cooking with him? Like, I think these stats are weak enough to indicate that this is a miss.

GreGor 22:51

I think they need to kind of The, the problem is the package that you're trying to put him in isn't that strong. Like, I- they're kind of trying to fix it with maybe Mad Thinker, but still Mad Thinker is just like, okay, I have to have a completely full hand every, every turn.

Alex 23:06

Yeah. I still think Thinker as a... Like, this was a very lazy change. I think this was a very lazy change. This should be getting plus two power when, if your hand is full, whether it's in hand or on the field of play, no matter where it is. Wherever it is should have a... It's that simple. Just like the Hulk gets his power, Red Hulk gets his power, right? This should be part of your hand. It should be in your hand, and it should be gaining- Yep gaining power. I think that's kind of the way it should work. It shouldn't have to be on the field of play to be gaining that advantage. But then again, like, you just do it once, it's, it's a 1-5, which we just went nuts for Hawkeye, but Hawkeye has more synergistic pot- potential. So like, yeah, I think the Mad Thinker's just a miss. I think that, like, the shield archetypes are a little not great either, and as a result we have Red Wolf who feels lackluster despite on paper having decent upside. Like, don't get me wrong, when you get this on turn two after you've played Mind Stone, that's a... You're, you're having a fun time. That is a snappable condition. But the problem is, is you're almost never seeing this on turn two after you play Mind Stone, right? Right. And after you play Mind Stone, playing your other stones to continue drawing through your hands is also a fantastic opportunity as well. So Mind Stone on turn one is just, that you just snap there anyways probably, right? So-

GreGor 24:21

Yeah

Alex 24:21

so Red Wolf, it just, it just feels like it's not quite doing enough in archetypes that need more help.

GreGor 24:26

Agreed 100%.

Alex 24:28

All right, so that's Red Wolf. Quick review of Red Wolf

Doctor Octopus Quickdraw Tech

Alex 24:31

here. Um, what are your thoughts on Doctor Octopus? Now, last week it was suggested, uh, by Binks that we, we not review the Doctor Octopus until we had a chance to play with Red Wolf, and I actually, I... Oh, this might sound crazy. I kinda like Doctor Octopus. It's- I don't mind him

GreGor 24:47

I, I like him a lot, to be honest. The, hi- the ability to reset your quick draw on an important card like either Jane Foster or you could do it with Psylocke to the three. Both of those have really great quick draw abilities. Or you could reset... Like, even he works great within a Thanos package, just regular Thanos. But yeah, just being able to reset some of those quick draw abilities. Psylocke's is huge. The ability to lower the cost of cards in hand by one for that quick draw effect, if you do that on three, that can make a huge combo.

Alex 25:23

Yeah. I actually, like, kinda think that Doctor Octopus is low-key decent. I'm not gonna say he's good. Like, there's potential there that I think can be kinda tapped into. Maybe needs to get up to a two-three. His stats are kind of on the weaker end, uh, 52% win rate, and that's of actually 51.8 that I rounded up. 8% popularity according to Untapped. And Cube Rate's barely positive. So not doing great, but like even Jane Foster, like resetting Jane Foster, she comes back as a 3/7 that also is quick drawn to p- like that, those are huge stats for a three drop with eight procs of her judgment, right? So

GreGor 26:00

You have in- hidden information with a card that's generated by Doc Ock as well.

Alex 26:05

Yeah, it's funny 'cause I found myself not often playing that, and then like I kinda thought to myself like what if we did kind of like a Quinjet, Dr. Octopus style deck. It never quite played the way I wanted it to. Tried to c- I tried to cope with Devil Dinosaur so bad. I wanted S.H.I.E.L.D. to work. I just, I just couldn't get it. Um, I even tried like, like Nick Fury and Psylocke stuff, but the problem is is that the, the play order was kind of awkward, so... 'Cause obviously you're usually playing Psylocke before Nick Fury and I was like, "Uh, I don't know." Like there was, there was things that like I kinda wanted to resolve from a deck building perspective that I just quite frankly didn't have enough time to, uh, while I was moving around last week. But Doc Ock ended up being a card that I like more. I like Doc Ock more than Red Wolf despite the fact I think that Red Wolf's ceiling's higher. I think that Dr. Octopus is a little more fun to play. I think that it has a little more of just like a surprise factor because like, I don't know, we don't often have that hand manipulation, and with quick draw, I mean, it's, it's, uh, it's more advantageous for you to utilize his effect, and if more quick draw comes, come out, uh, cards come out, Dr. Octopus gets better. So for a series four, I'm fully satisfied with this card. No, I wouldn't say that. I think it could be a two three honestly from a stats perspective. But I do think the effect is good enough. Like I'm very happy with the effect and uh, I just think maybe a little stat bump would benefit it

GreGor 27:24

Yeah, I agree. Uh, d- that quick draw effect is just so valuable. Like those two cards, Psylocke and Jane Foster, right there, worth it.

Alex 27:33

It's true. It's

Red Hulk Delta Talk

Alex 27:35

true. And we even have, of course, a card that's coming out not this week but the week after in Red Hulk, right? Uh, Red Hulk even has a crazier... I think Red Hulk Fractured Frontier, it either loses power or gains power depending on whether it's been quick drawn and how many cards are present in the field of play. That has probably the biggest ceiling floor delta in the entire season. And if we think that Red Wolf's bad, then Red Hulk's delta's even crazier, I think, in my opinion. So I think the Doctor Octopus might even gain more there, especially considering it could be on curve. Now, remember it's not always guaranteed that your leftmost card is the Psylocke, it is the Red Hulk. But it's gonna be sometimes, right? It's gonna

Doc Ock Fair Stats

Alex 28:13

be sometimes. So I don't know, very interesting times in Marvel Snap land as we continue to cook here, and I do think that Doctor Octopus as a series four I think is a very fair release. Two-three probably would've been the stat line I would've preferred. I get what they're doing though, because in theory it's a 2/2 that provides +3 on the card you're probably gonna play on the next turn if that's... if you're playing this. So that is theoretically 2/5 stats plus the stats of the card being added randomly added. So statistically, if you do the numbers on Doc Ock, 2/2 is absolutely fair.

GreGor 28:44

Yeah.

Alex 28:44

It's absolutely fair. Um, I, I mean, I might even push back. I don't even know if you need to buff Doc Ock. I think he might be fine, really.

GreGor 28:52

On paper he's a... If, if you're gonna play the card that he hits, it's a 2/5, right?

Alex 28:57

Yeah.

GreGor 28:57

So I like him for if you have Thanos as well, Thanos Fr- Fractured Frontier, and you wanna quick draw Thanos. If he's in the left lane, you could do that on turn that would be turn four, be able to play him on turn five. Yeah. With a bunch of other low-cost cards. That- I had a lot of fun with Doc

Surfer Deck Synergies

Alex 29:15

Ock. Yeah, you could even argue about Doctor Octopus in, like, Surfer-based decks, because if you think about it, Surfer decks often played... So the way I always played Surfer was I always played, well now, it's the Nova Killmonger and then two two drops. You're often before playing Forge and you're playing Jeff the Baby Land Dolphin. Now as the two drops you can play Forge or Jeff the Baby Land Dolphin, and instead of one of those two you play Doctor Octopus. If you have, say, like a Brood on the left or a Sebastian Shaw on the left, even a Maverick on the left- Or

GreGor 29:46

Ju- New Jubilee

Alex 29:47

New Jubilee on the left, you're able to then swap it, top deck it, bring it back, and that's massive power. In my testing with with Surfer, I actually really liked it, in particular with the Maverick, with the Broods, with the, um... Why am I forgetting the other card? Brood, b- oh, Sebastian Shaw of course, right? Which I actually, ironically, you, you always wanna hit Brood of course. But even, like, Jean Foster is a three drop that works in those decks, can be used to replace, uh, kind of like re-seat the board position. Yep Venus plays in those decks. You could theoretically play Psylocke though, I don't love her in those lists. But yeah, I think that Surfer's probably a legit spot for it, and probably just on the outskirts of being, like, a tier A deck I think.

GreGor 30:26

Yeah. Yeah, I'm just thinking if you were to... I'm thinking Jubilee Surfer. Adding three power to that, that's two... That would be seven. You can get her out on four. That's... Yeah. That's

Alex 30:39

not bad. Yeah. It's a lot of stats, that's for sure.

Doc Ock Beats Red Wolf

Alex 30:41

So I, I feel like, so kinda going back, in preview and in discussion with like, with like, but when we did the seas- season preview, we had Doctor Octopus ranked at a two star. I actually think it's higher than that. It's probably closer to like a very solid three star. Maybe like a unexciting three star. Red Wolf we were more excited about at four stars, and I think that feels more like a two, if that. Yeah. So definitely got, uh, Doctor Octopus and, uh, Red Wolf flipped there. I think that they're... Doctor Octopus is better than expected, and I think Red Wolf is worse than expected. Um, which happens when you try to evaluate cards in a, in a vacuum and, uh, yeah, that's that.

Why Red Wolf Struggles

Alex 31:19

I guess the one thing about, uh, about Red Wolf as well is that like it doesn't play well with Venus either. Venus is being played almost in every competitive deck right now. It's one of the most popular cards in Marvel Snap. And while it buffs itself by additional one, Venus won't see the cards in hand, right? Yeah. So it doesn't see the cards in hand, whereas when you play something like, uh, Jean Foster: Fractal Frontier with Venus down, Venus is going to impact the buffs being applied there, despite the fact that some will be debuffs being applied to the other side. So I think that kind of impacts Red Wolf a little bit too. Although on the other side of that, you can say, well, things like Sebastian Shaw and stuff care about being hit in the hand, but Red Wolf's not being played in those types of decks. Because if, if anything, it's like you don't play Red Wolf in a Surfer deck. You'd actually rather play Doc Ock instead of Red Wolf. So I don't know. Interesting times. Uh, any last thoughts on Doctor Octopus and Red Wolf?

GreGor 32:05

I just think of so many other two drops I would play over Wolf, Red Wolf. Would I rather play Red Wolf or play like a Surge, Iron Patriot, or new Doc Ock? There's so many options in the two drop slot. Red Wolf needs something to make him, fight for that spot.

Alex 32:23

And for what it's worth, the card's not bad. It's just like, like we see bad releases that like release into like the low 40% win rates and stuff. This card is still like, they didn't miss too low. They missed just a little low maybe. And this is still only the first week. Yeah. And it's also notable that the meta's still dominated by specific types of decks, and while the, when the meta's so kind of like one trick, when you have very high performing shells running high 50s, low 60% win rates, and then people are trying to experiment with new decks like Shield Red Wolf and stuff like that, like they get extra punished because the good decks are so solidified as good. Yeah. Because like if the meta becomes more fair, a card like Red Wolf where people are trying to cook with it, it can kind of compete a little better. Those incremental games that it wins improves its win rates, makes the feel a little better. But we don't have that right now. We have these decks that are really over-performing expectations, and as a result, trying to cook with a card that is closer to mid than good, it just, it, it just really amplifies our desire for it to have a little more stats, a little more oomph in it. I don't think that they released the cards weak this season. I think that Red Wolf might be a bit victim to what the meta is, where there's just so many really, really high tier, well-cooked options.

Meta Warps Around Thanos

GreGor 33:39

Yeah. Thanos is just so strong. Thanos Fractured Frontier is... I, I think it's the strongest card we've gotten this season. Would you agree with that?

Alex 33:49

Oh, there's no question. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And before we move on, I guess, I'd be in- very interested in your take on the meta and Thanos as a whole. Like, how are you feeling about the current meta?

GreGor 33:58

I, Thanos, uh, is the most fun I've had with a card, I think this year. Is he a fair card? No. I, I think he's a little bit too tuned. The fact that he just offers so much, it's like, uh, he offers removal, he offers copy effect, he offers the ability to move, uh, he offers cost reduction. That's a lot of stuff for just playing on your curve But I don't know. I feel bad for the people that don't have the Season Pass. He's that strong, that it feels like... I feel like you're pl- fighting an uphill battle if you don't have this card.

Alex 34:36

It's absolutely true, and that's actually one of the things that, like, I thought about too. Like, don't get me wrong I, I remember mentioning that I thought this was a great Season Pass purchase. I knew it was gonna be good. I knew that it was gonna be meta impactful. But it does feel a little bit bad when you distort the meta this much that not getting the Season Pass feels like you're just not playing the same game, 'cause everyone else is having... Oh, with, fun with what is honestly an amazingly fun card.

Nerf Talk And Data

Alex 35:01

The stats on Thanos, like, these, these decks are regularly in the 60% win rate range. Oh my gosh, I just looked it up. I, 'cause I didn't have, I didn't pull the stats on Thanos right now. Updated just right now in this moment, ranks 90 to 100 plus in rank in, uh, in untap-based stats. Do you wanna take a guess at his meta popularity? I'm gonna put you on the spot here, Gregor. He has a 55% win rate on aggregate. Yeah. But what's his me- his popularity?

GreGor 35:25

65%.

Alex 35:27

Okay. You're not actually... That is high, man. That's, that is a very high guess and you're not even that far off.

GreGor 35:33

Yes.

Alex 35:33

47%. 47%. 47? 47. 47.

GreGor 35:39

I was pretty far off, but yes, that's great.

Alex 35:41

I was trying... I mean, here's the thing. You think, like, okay, wow, you're like 20, 20% off. That is a lot. Yeah. But a 47% play rate is ridiculous. Like, that is an absolutely massive, massive amount of Marvel Snap being played. And what I mean is you're not so far off, is if you would've asked me that question, I would not have thought to potentially go over 50%, right? And I guess, like, here's the thing, though. In your pocket meta, it could very well be that high. Also, we'll keep in mind that Untap Stats, while a really good kind of, like, flashpoint for us getting some data, doesn't represent everything perfectly, doesn't represent mobile perfectly, doesn't represent people that don't have the tracker, doesn't represent casual players, doesn't rep- Like, there's all these caveats to the, the ever-so-blurry picture we try to paint of the meta. So your feel of 67% or 65% might actually be closer to true. Who knows? The question is, is do you see Thanos being nerfed into the Thanos season?

GreGor 36:40

No. I, I...

Alex 36:41

Is it- Do you say that because it's, it doesn't need it, or because of, uh, we'll say financial incentives?

GreGor 36:46

Uh, we'll say the, the latter. The last time we had a season pass card get nerfed in season, I think was Mr. Fantastic.

Alex 36:56

Yes. I think- And that was pretty, that was pretty bad, too.

GreGor 36:59

Yeah. Yeah, it's very rare Loki got changed

Alex 37:02

in season two

GreGor 37:03

Yeah, Loki got changed in season two and Mr. Fantastic got changed. But other than that, we usually see nerfs happen at least after the season is finished.

Alex 37:15

Yeah.

GreGor 37:16

So I think we'll see him for a bit longer. I am more surprised to not see Thanos in a deck than I am to see anything else. Like, I'm always expecting Thanos Fractured Frontier Cause he slots into any deck. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex 37:30

Yeah.

Is Thanos Actually Fair

Alex 37:31

In his defense, although the popularity's super high, the win rate is not egregious. Like, 55% on aggregate, and I just scrolled down here, I'm taking a look at, like, its top performing shells. Yeah, about 60%, 61, 59. Definitely really high. Definitely really high. Definitely really good, don't get me wrong. But I'm saying that, like, when we had peak Loki, those decks were more oppressive. Peak Master of the Sun, those decks were more oppressive and so horrible to play against, just 'cause they were so uninteractive. Peak Shola'o was more oppressive and I think more irritating to play against. You're get- I think there's fatigue on Thanos specifically, but this is a better type of fatigue where I feel like you're at least playing Marvel Snap and they're playing Marvel Snap and- Yeah the card is more fair. It's just, I think it's really fun. I think it's very novel. The whole season is built around quick draw, so that's why you're seeing it so much. But this ain't the same thing as Shola'o or Master of the Sun.

GreGor 38:28

100%. I have way more fun. I actually really enjoy the mirror matches with Thanos. They're very fun to play. It feels like you're actually in a duel which I think they nailed flavor-wise and just, like, mechanic-wise. But it does feel yeah, like he is a very prevalent force within the meta right now.

Alex 38:48

There's no question. So do you, uh, do you think Thanos is a problem that needs to be fixed, or do you think that we're okay to keep, uh, chugging along as he is?

GreGor 38:55

I think they'll make a slight adjustment to him, uh, maybe with some of his stones. But I think, uh, he's right about there. I think just certain stuff make him really, really powerful. The fact that he basically can nuke what... I know it's the lowest power card, but you can do a lot of stuff with that. Same with the copy effect.

Alex 39:15

Yeah. Absolutely. Oh, I think that this is by far, the copy effect is so good. It's one of the reasons why, like, when I was cooking, I cooked it with, uh, like, something like a, um, Karen Page because, like, it was just so good. You replicate Karen Page, the stats are crazy. She's fairly statted as it is, but, like, you're playing Quicksilver, Domino, Venus, and then Karen Page, and then you play the Thanos: Fractured Frontier. And with the Venus effect- Yeah oh my gosh, the stats on the board, like, the numbers are nuts. Absolutely nuts.

GreGor 39:47

Yeah. Uh, for me, I hit infinite this season, fastest infinite climb I've ever done. I did it with the Techno-Organic Virus shell, and I would be hitting either, I'd be copying a Monstro, a already very padded Daredevil, Shadowlands Daredevil. Copies, puts more demons into your, into it on five. There's just so much you can do with it. It's very strong.

Alex 40:10

Yeah, absolutely.

Death Card Preview

Alex 40:11

I think it's about that time that we try to take a look at the new card coming to Marvel Snap, and that is Death: Fractured Frontier. We're gonna preview this here. Death is gonna be the new card coming this week on August 18th. It is a series five. Death: Fractured Frontier is a 5/8 that reads, "On reveal, resurrect all your destroyed characters to random locations." Very analogous to one Hela, except, discard them, you destroy them. I'm gonna give you the floor before I, uh, I kind of, uh... I don't wanna influence your rating. So I, I, I might have already did before actually, but Gregor, the floor is yours. The new Lady Death. What are your thoughts?

GreGor 40:56

I think it's gonna be a fun card. This looks like a fun card. Do I think it's gonna be good or meta defining? No. Uh, there's a lot of ways to shut it down. If you have Tempo, Cosmo shuts this entire thing down. Same with if they telegraph, I feel like this is a telegraphed play a little bit. Destroying all your stuff and then yeah, you shut it down. Uh, Stardust also shuts it down, but I think the more tools that Destroy has, it makes for a more fun deck building and just meta environment in general. I'm trying to think here, what are you realistically bringing back with this card? What would your targets be? 'Cause it's not gonna be X-23. It's not gonna be Wolverine. I don't think it would work with Deadpool

Death Deck Ideas

Alex 41:38

I think it's like, honestly, the first place I wanna try it in is gonna be Misery, Misery f- Firehair Thanos. I think that's one of the places I wanna try it. Destroy Thanos- Okay even with Killmonger, I think could potentially be kind of interesting. Proc those additional draws, fill that hand up, then something like a Red Wolf makes more sense. I might not play Red Wolf in that deck, but I'm just saying- that could potentially make sense, 'cause you're gonna have a really big hand.

GreGor 42:00

Yeah

Alex 42:00

that's one of the places I wanna play. I also wanna play Lady Death there in Nimrod, uh, like Kid Omega type stuff. Because I do think that p- perhaps Kid Omega has some potential with Death specifically. Star rating-wise, like, I'm still not feeling great. Like, what is your star rating preview rating? Like, what are you thinking star-wise, one to five?

GreGor 42:21

Like, a three.

Alex 42:22

See, I'm thinking two. So, like, we're in the same ballpark, right? And I- Yeah could see someone cooking higher. Like, I could see someone hitting that three, potentially even four if they cook like a really mad cook. But for me, it's

Curve Questions And Counters

Alex 42:33

like I just don't see it. Like, one question I've been asking myself, and this has been keeping me up at night, I stare at this card, I think to myself, "Why is it a five? Why is it not a six?"

GreGor 42:40

Yeah, the curve. The curve is off on it, right?

Alex 42:43

Isn't it exactly that? And I'm thinking to myself, "What am I missing?" Like, what did... And I'm not saying that, like, Second Dinner didn't think of making this a six. It probably started as a six, and they probably tested it and found that it was better as a five. And I'm trying to figure out, like, what is-- If you play this on five, then what's your turn six closing play? Am I missing something obvious? Am I not seeing what gets played on turn six? And this, this happens. Listen, sometimes this happens, where, like, we plan ahead, we take notes, we do all these things, and we miss something very obvious that one person picks up on. In the Shull Lao season, it was, in retrospect, incredibly obvious that Shull Lao and Scarlet Spider were gonna be absolutely insane together. But I didn't see that. I just didn't see it. And so, like, that completely changed the math on Shull Lao when Scarlet Spider was like-- Someone was like, "Bro, this is easy. Like, what are we talking about here?" I'm like, "Oh my God- I just unfollowed this season why didn't I think of it?" Yeah. I'm, I feel the same feeling now with, with this Death. I'm f- I'm like, what don't I see as a six drop that follows up on this, or a play on turn six that follows up with this? I ju- I just don't see it yet, so I'm not sure. And I have a couple other deck ideas, but I just wanna throw that your way. Like, do you see something that I don't that makes t- turn six make sense for this being a five drop?

GreGor 43:49

I... the thing I'm thinking about is what I already see, which is, like, Symbiote Spider-Man into, like, a Black Panther, and then potentially bring that back. But you're playing Black Panther on five, so you're not gonna be able to do Death on that turn. What are you doing on turn six with Death and maybe a one drop? Unless you're able to somehow ramp, maybe with X-23, maybe you could do something

Alex 44:16

True. And I don't like relying on magic strategies anymore. I, I know that you can consider playing magic extended. I just, I don't wanna do that. I wanna, I wanna make strategies that work with six turns. And it... You mentioned it before too, it's also tricky 'cause a lot of, like, the main destroy activators are not actually going into the destroy pool, right? Like Wolverine- Yeah deadpool, et cetera, they don't do that. I guess the thing I was thinking about too is, like, I think Weapon X could potentially be very good. Weapon X, uh, you do, like, Shanna, Killmonger stuff. Those one drops all die. You could theoretically bring them back, and you are buffing your Knull, you're buffing your death while making death discounted. You're re- I'm assuming you're gonna re-proc their on reveal, so, like, if Shanna- Yeah brought an Iceman, Iceman's gonna come back down, re-proc stuff like that But like I still think that maybe the F- Fire Hair would work in that deck too perhaps. I don't know. I still like, even though right now we're recording on, we're recording on Sunday and the card comes out on Tuesday, and I always like to pen and paper my decks way in advance because like, or else if I, if I don't, my decks aren't good. I wanna make sure I plan in advance. My decks still, I feel like I'm still playing with. Like I don't like how they look yet, and I k- I keep leaning towards Fire Hair, which I think is gonna be really important. I think Fire Hair into Death is gonna be very important to maximize the effectiveness of this, especially with on reveals. I just don't know what that deck looks like yet. 'Cause like even with like The Hood, for instance, which is a natural play with like Fire Hair and stuff, do I really want The Hood being resurrected again anyways even if I get another demon? Like I, I don't think I want that. So there's a lot of question marks around this deck, and it makes me wonder if it's... It feels like Morgan Le Fay where like on paper you wanna cook with it, but in practice it's just not worth it.

GreGor 45:55

I do have a question, though. Does it resurrect in the order that they were destroyed?

Alex 46:02

I have no idea. I have no idea. And w- I mean, I don't even, we don't know for sure, and I believe they should re-proctor on reveals. That's- Right they should. I mean, they don't necessarily have to unless we're surprised, but we don't know the order by which they're coming back, I don't think so.

GreGor 46:18

You could do some... I, I can think of some cheeky things you could do with like Fire Hair, Killmonger, and a bunch of one-drops.

Alex 46:25

Yeah.

GreGor 46:25

Bring back The Hood and then kill everything off in the same turn with Killmonger if they're all one-drops.

Alex 46:32

Yeah. It's true. It's true. I don't know. And I even had this cope idea of like what if I ramped out like Destroyer- Yeah and like destroyed everything and then b- but like why though? Why? 'Cause if you don't wanna destroy everything just to bring it back, then you could just like play Destroyer on a Cosmo if you wanna take that route or whatever, right? I don't know. I just- Defeat Knull I had this idea of like what if I do ramp, and it's just like, okay, but why? Why am I ramping to destroy my stuff just to play Death on when I'm supposed to be playing a six drop? 'Cause if I'm playing Destroyer first, that means Death and Destroyer are being played out of order. It doesn't make any sense either. So like everything about this card, it, like I, I see the potential, but at the same time I'm like, I don't know if this is g- When you have decks that are as good as they are right now, as dialed in as they are, I don't know if this will be able to trade punches. And I think that Second Dinner recognized that as well, and that's why Fire Hair got buffed. 'Cause Fire Hair does not get buffed if their internal Fire Hair death decks are popping off. You know what I mean?

GreGor 47:32

Yeah. Uh, also again, is it... This is just so easy to shut down. Cosmo or Stardust, they have that one tech card

Alex 47:40

Yeah. Yeah. Star- oh, Stardust. Stardust absolutely takes a filthy dump on this. Like, it just- Yeah. It's ex- it's the exact card that completely shuts it down. It shuts down those Hela cell archetypes, and Stardust is, it's brutal. Stardust still continues to be, like, a low, low-key cube stealer in Marvel Snap. 'Cause it has, like Even when people play Stardust against me, sometimes I'm like, "Wait a minute, does it st-" Like, I have to think carefully about some of its interactions. Like, I can't think of it off the top of my head, but, like, I've had moments where, like, I'll be streaming and Stardust down, and I'm like, "Wait, this will stop... Stardust stops this play, right?" And chat- Right will be like yes, yes. No, no, no. Yes. No. Yes. No." I'm like, "No one knows. No, I don't know. Okay, we ball, we send," and of course it shuts it down usually. Always err- Yeah on the side it's gonna shut it down, by the way. But yeah, you're right, Stardust completely poo-poos on this. But it's not, Stardust isn't that meta popular right now, thankfully.

GreGor 48:28

No. No, but if they have that in there, and, you know, they know Death is coming, they play it on the same turn, 'cause people are gonna be playing Death when it comes out. People are going to- Yeah play Stardust basically to hate on the new card, I imagine.

Alex 48:46

As one does, yeah.

GreGor 48:47

Yeah.

Alex 48:48

The other place where I could see it being good- I don't know, I'm interested in seeing where it...

GreGor 48:50

Yeah

Alex 48:51

is, uh... I, I, I know I just cut you off completely, and I do apologize for

Weapon X Tombstone Cook

Alex 48:55

that. No, you're fine. It's Weapon X. Weapon X, I mean, Weapon X, if you think about it, I think that it could work well in, like, the decks where you're, like, you're gonna Killmonger one drops and stuff like that. And Death does bring those back, and you could perhaps destroy them again with, like, a Tombstone or something like that. There's routes you can take. I am trying- Or- to cook a Tombstone Weapon X deck that utilizes Death with those cards. I just, I don't know if it's gonna be good. I

GreGor 49:22

think you could also just destroy the Killmonger on turn four and then bring back all the one drops. You bring back Killmonger. It destroys all of them again

Alex 49:32

Could that... It d- I guess it would depend on how the o- You're right though, because if you do the, the one drops, if it goes in the order that things are destroyed, Killmonger comes down, wipes everything out, you Tombstone the Killmonger on four, you Death. Okay, hold on. But like, if you're... Okay, Squirrel Girl on one, Weapon X on two, Killmonger on three. Turn four, you, I don't know, something and, uh, like you do X... No, X-23's not a good example. Maybe it is. Yeah. No, it wouldn't enter the pool, but maybe you still play it anyways. I don't know. You do the Tombstone plus whatever else. Turn five, Death, like this Death or the other Death, this Death, I mean, and then turn six you have like Knull and Death.

GreGor 50:15

Yeah.

Alex 50:16

Okay. It makes slightly more sense. There's potential there. There's potential there. You need Squirrel Girl though, or else the cur- the curve starts to look dirtier. I guess it's that turn four I wonder about, 'cause even with Shauna, right, you could... Wait a minute. Hold on.

GreGor 50:29

What about

Alex 50:29

Fire Hair? What stops you from... Y- yeah, Fire Hair as well, but also like what stops you from playing Death on turn six there?

Turn Six Deadpool Line

Alex 50:35

'Cause you could theoretically... Oh, here it is. Here it is. We're crazy. You do this deck, you put Deadpool in it as well. You destroy everything over and over again. You use Death, uh, you use Killmonger and Tombstone to keep destroying Deadpool, and then on turn six you play Death and Deadpool. That's six. You bring back everything, you play the Deadpool. That's possible. Now, I don't know if I'm just jumping over a bunch of lines or Deadpool having that extra curve, that extra energy is gonna throw off some of my curves, but theoretically, Death, this Death, and Deadpool is six, six mana.

GreGor 51:08

So my thought was on turn four you go Fire Hair and Tombstone.

Alex 51:12

Fire, Tombstone. That's turn four. That's good too. Yeah. That's not bad, 'cause you're gonna want Weapon X down on turn two.

GreGor 51:19

Yeah, Weapon X will be on two. You do the Firehair Tombstone so when they br- come back they get the additional proc from the Destroy?

Alex 51:29

Yeah. I don't know. Destroy still dies to Stardust. But- Yes at least now we're starting to see some cooking. We're starting to see... We answered the turn six question a little bit. That does make sense. And what could be potentially very fascinating is if you play Death into the Deadpool in that order, if you bring back all those Squirrels and then you bring back the Killmonger, they wipe, and then the Weapon X runs up 'cause of the extra Destroys. The Death is still free. Your Deadpool lands does not get wiped by Killmonger. Suddenly you did attack three locations at once. You did have a very balanced attack there. Okay. Okay. I think that there's something there. I don't know if it's good. Still dies to Stardust, but we have something there at the very least. Uh, I don't think it changes my two-star rating, though. I, I still think even at, like, while we're trying to cook together here, I think that it might still be a little haphazard.

GreGor 52:22

Yeah, 100%. Again, it's just such a fragile shell. And I feel like most of the time you're gonna be behind on priority. So your play is just there to get, messed up by a Cosmo or something.

Alex 52:37

Yeah Tricky times in the world of Marvel Snap.

Wrap Up And Plugs

Alex 52:41

But what I would suggest you guys do while you're cooking with Death is that you gotta watch Gregor cook with Death. Gregor, you stream a whole lot. Yeah. You tweet a whole lot. Yes. You YouTube a whole lot. Where can we find you on the World Wide Internets?

GreGor 52:55

Pretty much Gregor2424 across all my socials. The only place that's a little bit different is on the Twitters, uh, it's gregor_2424. But yeah, I'll be cooking up with Death on Tuesday, so maybe we'll find a place, or maybe it will be mid. We will see.

Alex 53:13

It's either or, really. Like, this is one of those cards, though, that, like... Just like Morgan Le Fay. I remember looking at Morgan Le Fay and being like, "I think this card might be bad, but I feel like someone's gonna cook with it." Yeah. And then everyone that cooked with it was just like, "The card's just bad. Sorry, bro." Like, it's not... It's just not it. Like, it ain't it, right? Yeah. And it's possible. And I feel like Morgan Le Fay and this new Death, they occupy very similar spaces, so I have hope. I have hope. It's also not a quick draw card. So, if you skipped out on Thanos and you skipped out on everything else, but you're a destroy gamer, you still might find something to love here. It's not reliant on Thanos. It's... At least it's not gonna feed the Thanos shell. And now that I've said that, the best version of Death is gonna be some destroy Death Thanos thing that has double Thanos, and everyone's gonna be like, "Alex, you said it wasn't gonna be a Thanos card. Now it's a Thanos card." 100%. It's not my fault those decks are so damn good, and you can just put anything. You could put M'Baku in current Thanos, and it'll be excellent. Yep. So... m'Baku's a bad example. He just won a tournament. But you know what I'm trying to say. It's just you can play anything. You could play anything. Gregor, it was an absolute pleasure having you on the SnapChat as always. Guys, as I said, definitely use the links down below to follow Gregor across all social platforms. Absolutely fantastic content creator. Thank you so much for watching, everyone. We sincerely appreciate every one of you. Hit that like button if you haven't hit it already, and we'll see you on that next one